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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 19:51 |
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Some of you may have noticed my recent citation of several papers from Jeffrey Gordon's lab canvassing the topic of obesity, and how gut microbiota (bacterial flora) seem to be involved in whether we get fat (or get thin, or stay 'normal').
"Fat people harbour 'fat' microbes"
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=3017
and
"An obesity-associated gut microbiome with increased capacity for energy harvest"
http://tinyurl.com/2rfrzp PMID: 17183312
Well, this week I had an abstract accepted for presentation at an upcoming conference, Metagenomics 2007, and as the moderators were browsing through the conference website, Janet noticed that Jeffrey Gordon had spoken at the same conference last year, and that the video of that presentation was still online.
The video "It's So Nice to Have a Few Trillion Friends: Exploring the Structure and Functions of Our Human Gut Microbiota and Microbiome, Jeffrey I. Gordon, Washington University of St. Louis"
is at http://rpvss.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/calit2/metagenomics/gordon.rm
This is a "MUST SEE" video. Please put aside 32 minutes of your time to watch it. You will come away with a new appreciation for the bacteria which live in symbiosis with Homo sapiens.
And as an added bonus, there is a video where W. Ford Doolittle, of Dalhousie University (Canada), argues against the concept of Bacterial species altogether. Another 'must see.'
http://rpvss.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/calit2/metagenomics/doolittle.rm
Note particularly the "agreement to disagree" during the question and answer session of this latter video. This frank exchange of scientific concepts is something I sorely miss when I am in Clinical Medicine circles, where the instinct is to suppress any thought which conflicts with what one supposes to be 'the consensus'.
So where does Th1 disease come into all this?
Well, as you know, the VDR is blocked by the Th1 pathogens to protect themselves from the beta-Defensin and Cathelicidin anti-microbial peptides. Yet these same Defensins are key to controlling the flora in the small intestine (recall the earlier video about Crohn's disease for more info). I don't think I need to remind anybody that the GI tract seems to be abnormal in just about every member of our cohort
Previously I have noted that, dependent on the infectious history of an individual, the microbiota they are carrying around (the 'pea soup') varies from individual to individual.
Additionally, many of the Th1 co-infections are firmicutes, in any case.
Finally, right at the end of the video, Jeffrey discloses that they were able to take bacterial flora from obese mice, and use them to infect 'normal' mice, turning the normals obese in the process. Oh what a can of worms this opens up...
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Julia
Board Staff (on leave)
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 20:41 |
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Please could we start a swap shop? Someone take my fat bacteria and I'll take their thin ones? ...I wish 
Who knows, maybe some day instead of gastric bypass ops, we'll have a Gastro-Intestinal Biofloral Bacterial Exchange Regimen for the Institution of Self Healing (GIBBERISH) 
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Always consult a physician.
Sarc/uveitis/hypercalcaemia/ankle osteoarthritis/eczema. MP May04. 25D June08:9.6. Life is good! Julia's story
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LeAnne
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 21:00 |
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I remember when I first started the protocol that I made mention of bacteria being stored in fat. I remember reading about it along time ago. I am going on a diet. Ahhhh
LeAnne
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Neuro-Sarcoidosis/lungs, spleen, nervous system, skin lesions, 125D66, MP 8/05, Ph1 3/06, Ph3 7/06, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, 25D9 Sep07
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Frans
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 13:16 |
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Trevor, the first (simple) question that pops into my mind is:
In which class do we put probiotics (we have all sorts of drinks containing 'good' bacteria here in holland) ? Fermicutes or bacteroidetes?
Sincerely, Frans
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Burn-out/nervous breakdown Jan01 125D 48 25D8.48 Ph1Nov06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Apr08 Cipramil Seroquel NoIRs lite exp r/t work cover up 25D3.9(Oct07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 13:25 |
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The bigger question is how probiotics disturb the balance, not which class they go into. You will note in Jeffrey's presentation that transplanting the Zebra fish bacteria into the mice changed the balance of the bacterial species.
It is not as simple as "popping a pill." IMO that is because the effect of the probiotics will change depending on how your innate immune system is able to respond to the probiotic, and the microbiota already there. And that depends on the state of your Th1 infection....
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Russ
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Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 15:54 |
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| So if innate immunity is functioning properly then taking probiotics might help by triggering innate immunity to go after some of the bad guys living in the gut. Whereas in advanced TH1 disease, where innate immunity has basically been shut down, probiotics will not have the same benefit. Is that kind of what you're thinking?
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Lyme/Borrelia, Connective Tissue Disease | May '06: 1-25D=59 25D=30 | Jul '06: Phase 1 | Aug '06 25D=16 | Oct '06 25D=6 | Nov '06: Phase 2 | Jul '07: Phase 3 | covering up & wearing NOIRs | no other meds or supplements
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 16:32 |
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no, Russ, I am thinking that if innate immunity is functioning correctly then the human body can get by quite well without any flora in the gut. Maybe there will be 20% less conversion of fibre, etc, but I suspect we would just eat more and the undigested fibre would reduce constipation
I am not convinced that any of the microbiota are essential for health. I am still looking for evidence of benefit, I don't see it. The bugs help us grow old, they help us get ill. Maybe there are offsetting positives. I just haven't found any yet
Folk who think they are healthy (but remember everybody is carrying some sort of mix of microbiota) might feel some benefit from using probiotics, but since all they are doing is making their innate immune system work a little harder, I am not sure there is any long-term benefit to be gained from probiotics.
Of course, the whole population is currently carrying a heavy load of pathogens, so it is not possible to actually test any of this out just yet... but in a few more years..
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wrotek
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 14:02 |
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I tried to watch but they are downloading so slowly. So i downloaded, but files where glitching, sudden sound speeding were present and video coding errors. Perhaps if anybody has these files downloaded and are fine, send me please on my gmail so i could put them on video.google.com for better performance. wrotekmaciej[nospam}@gmail.com . Cut the files in half (less than 30MB segments)using winrar.
Last edited on Fri Jun 15th, 2007 14:04 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 14:07 |
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Wrotek,
They are RealVideo files with multiple bps streams embedded. You have to use a player that is capable of mixing the streams correctly.
Real Player works fine, of course, as does Real Alternative (with some minor difficulties).
The only way to download a decent RTSP stream is to use "Streambox VCR beta 31-turbo"
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 14:25 |
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Thank You, i used flashget to download them and it took me 2 hours, very slow. And i use real alternative for viewing. I will try second software.
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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scooker48
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 14:30 |
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I see the future of commercial scientists producing and marketing a "fat pill".
But even more important, if the firmicutes are the CWD pathogens we've discussed on this blog and as the reference to Wikipedia has implied, we've found another name for the same enemy. And if we can tie it in with "main stream science" and make people understand, we are making progress.
Sherry
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Necrotizing granulomas biopsy 10/88; Dx 12/04 Sarcoid liver spleen. 2/2/05: VitD 25/VitD125 62. 11/18/08 D25 <4.0 L, Liver function normal 4/08; Wear NoIRs outside & for computer screen time. No K creme used.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 17:30 |
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Sherry,
I included a link to Prof Doolittle, arguing that species are irrelevant, in the first message of this topic.
'Firmicutes' is a pretty broad brush, certainly inclusive of many of the recognized L-form 'species', but I would emphasize that 94% of the 'species' that Jeff's group found were not able to be identified.
So it's sort of groping around in the dark, at the species level.
At the level of "pea soup" it has now been shown that 'transplanting' the pea-soup from ob/ob mice to sterile mice caused those to also become obese. What was in that pea soup is probably less important at this point, rather the key is that one's infective microbiota can influence one's weight. Which we all sorta knew before, but now our hunch is backed by some science
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Ames
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 18:06 |
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Trevor,
Fascinating video. How awesome that you will be at the conference this year.
A few things:
1. When Mr. Gordon is talking about how gut microbes are selected, he says that bacterial colonization happens at birth and that the environment inside the uterus is sterile. With what we know about L form bacteria persisting from generation to generation would you say this conclusion is incorrect?
2. I’m also interested that they were able to create what they believe are germ free zebrafish and mice. Do you think the specimens really were 100% germ free? If so, how did they kill off L form bacteria?
3. I’m one of those people who can eat whatever they want and not gain weight. I eat about 2500- 3000 calories a day, usually many more than my boyfriend who is nearly twice my weight. I also have had pretty minimal gut IP so far. My digestion has yet to go awry in any way. I wonder the fact that it’s hard to me to gain weight implies that I might not have deal with a very large amt of gut IP…that would be nice!
LeeAnne, you mention killing bacteria in fat cells, but the impression I get is that to stay thin it’s not really a matter of killing the bacteria our fat cells, but killing the bacteria in our gut which regulate the ability of our genes to store energy in adipose tissue. And Julia…in my mind the fat pills you speak of would essentially be MP antibiotics, which target and kill our obesity inducing bacteria, leaving us with a composition of flora in our guts that makes it much easier not to put on weight.
We are going to be a svelte bunch!Last edited on Fri Jun 15th, 2007 18:55 by Ames
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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Julia
Board Staff (on leave)
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 21:14 |
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And Julia…in my mind the fat pills you speak of would essentially be MP antibiotics, which target and kill our obesity inducing bacteria, leaving us with a composition of flora in our guts that makes it much easier not to put on weight.
We are going to be a svelte bunch!
I wish, Amy. But three and a half years of MP leave me more obese than ever. Not that I'm blaming the MP (much of my problem is not being able to exercise), just saying it hasn't worked in that way for me . Yet. Ever hopeful...
I wasn't thinking of pills so much as a treatment to remove the 'fat' bacteria and replace them with a culture of 'thin' ones. (Or vice versa, for you, you infuriating girl, because you're able to eat anything and not put on weight. Grrr.)
Julia 
____________________
Always consult a physician.
Sarc/uveitis/hypercalcaemia/ankle osteoarthritis/eczema. MP May04. 25D June08:9.6. Life is good! Julia's story
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 21:39 |
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the environment inside the uterus is sterile
The reason the metagenomic teams haven't made a real medical breakthrough is that they are not adequately skilled in a number of clinical areas we stumbled into. We had the necessity to understand Borrelia, for instance, which has been shown to be transmitted during pre-natal gestation. So we have a slightly different view of things to Jeff
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 21:57 |
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remove the 'fat' bacteria and replace them with a culture of 'thin' ones
Julia,
I think this will happen automatically as your innate immune system fully recovers. Ultimately you will be making the antimicrobial peptides under control of hormonal feedback from the GI tract, rather than being overwhelmed by the signals from the infected phagocytes. I suspect that the full complement of antimicrobial peptides will allow effective culling of the nasties.
Many folk on the MP are thin, and some go through thinning periods. But weight fluctuates, and I suspect will not totally normalize until the body totally returns to full health.
At that point, 'the world's your oyster'... and we will probably continue to break paradigms as we develop knowledge about 'healthy aging'...
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CJ
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat Jun 16th, 2007 23:27 |
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I am definatly going through a "thinning period". I have recently lost most all of the fat I put on from my last bout of steroids ( 5-6 years ago) . My weight was 115, I'd have to guess I'm 100lbs now. I don't keep a scale. I hope this means something good. I don't much like being this thin. I am feeling well energy-wise.
I haven't had severe gut IP. But I definatly have had major turn around in intestinal problems since begining the MP. Thank goodness.
Last edited on Sun Jun 17th, 2007 00:33 by CJ
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Saroidosis/lungs, 25D7 (8/07) Spireva,Ibuprofen, NoIRs, lite exp r/t work
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jasmine
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Mon Jun 18th, 2007 00:25 |
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Hi CJ,
I am just starting the MP, and have been experiencing a "thinning period" as well for the last year or so.
I live in Michigan as well, and am looking for a doctor that is willing to help me succeed on the MP. Do you have any recommendations?
Sincerely,
Jasmine
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Lyme, autoimmune thyroid disease, CFS, FM, neuro pain, osteoarthritis, osteopenia, IBS, MCS; 125D45 6/07; PH1 6/07, ModPH2 7/07, PH2 1/08; Cytomel, NoIRs, low lux home, cover up, lite exp. r/t work, 25D22 1/08
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Sue from St. Louis
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Mon Jun 18th, 2007 00:46 |
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I've lost 30 pounds without dieting since I went off Pred. on Nov. 16, 2006 and onto the Marshall Protocol. I've had a weight problem since I was 5 following removal of my tonsils and adenoids. This discussion is fascinating. How great it would be to eat like everyone else and not gain weight.
Sue from St. Louis
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Sarcoidosis/CNS 1,25D48, D2511, MP 9/06, Mod Ph2 11/07 Synthroid, Diclofenec, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, Lasix (as needed), amitriptyline, NOIRs, cover-up, low lux home
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Adrianne
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Jun 18th, 2007 14:34 |
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| Wow, all of this information is incredible! Or I should say, very credible! This explains why I have such a difficult time losing weight even if I do all the things recommended for weight loss. I am always very careful about diet, concentrating on vegetables, fruits, lean meats, nuts and seeds and I eat mostly whole grain carbs and avoid sugars and refined carbs. I choose organic foods whenever available. Prior to the MP I was doing a very intense exercise program, involving both aerobic and weight-training exercises. In several months time of almost daily exercise, I lost only about three pounds. I comforted myself by thinking that it was because I was building muscle. Anyway, I am so happy that, finally, there are some answers out there and that I am on the right track with the MP. Thank you, Trevor. I am no longer discouraged about the seven pounds I've gained since starting the MP because I am busy killing the bugs that are at the root of the problem!
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CFS Ph1Jan07 ModPh2Apr07 Ph2Aug07 Ph3Feb08 L-tryptophan benadryl 25D<7(Mar08) NoIRs limited outings covered
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