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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 07:26 |
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I can see now (with the Molecular Dynamics) that Olmesartan actually has a higher affinity than is calculated by the static configurations. This is because the receptor changes shape a little to move into a shape which is a stronger fit with the Olmesartan molecule.
However, based on the numbers you cite, and assuming that the concentrations were the same, then about 50% of the Olmesartan would be displaced by the same concentration of Chlorogenic acid, as their KIs are essentially equal. Reemember the S-shaped curve from my FDA presentation
So, if we will consume chlorogenic acid, won't we lose benicar protective blockade due to chlorogenic acid - benicar competition ?
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 07:33 |
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Yes, if the concentration gets high enough, the chlorogenic acid will displace Benicar from the VDR, exactly as too much 25-D would. You would thus lose the benefits from Benicar.
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 07:44 |
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So maybe this is why i think i felt more pain in certain regions like legs, after drinking coffee and simultanously taking antibiotics. Hmmm.... Interesting.
But then from the other side i drank coffee because it made me feel better. So maybe it made me feel better when antibiotics actions subsided and worse when antibiotic actions kicks in.Last edited on Fri Mar 16th, 2007 07:55 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 10:21 |
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| I wonder, how much coffee one has to drink to achieve the same chlorogenic acid concentration in the body as benicar concentration. Or there are too many things to take into account to assess this.
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Prince Albert
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 21:42 |
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| In further to the discussion on drinking raw vegetable juices. I personally went on the Linus Pauling programme a few years back ie taking copious quantities of Vit C per day (40-60gm) This in turn made me extremely and violently ill. To this day I can not take any Vit C supplements or foods with added Vit C. I can not eat citric acid, tartaric acid, malic acid, lactic acid etc. I can not eat any raw fruits except for bananas, melons, and lychees. Most canned or frozen fruits are OK except for canned mandarin oranges, canned grapefruits etc. I have been putting red bell peppers thru the juicer as they give a sweet, pleasant tasting juice reminiscent of fruit juice but without the acid, but still having large amounts of Vit C. Am I doing the right thing?
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 02:13 |
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Wrotek, PA,
One of the things about science is that it is a gloriously uncertain career. Managing the areas of uncertainty, such as the concentrations which any particular individual might be experiencing, is an art, and it distinguishes a good scientist from a great one. I have no hard and fast answers for either of you, just a wooly warm conceptual overview in my head that would take ages to try and put on paper. I hope you understand
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 18:08 |
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PA
FOOD TIPS has Links to all Food Topics
Juicing vegetables can increase the concentrations of individual ingredients to a level which your body cannot handle.
Thanks, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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wrotek
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 08:46 |
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I see.
Frankly i have to admit i am scared to quit coffee now entirely because i am on so high doses of phase 2 meds.
What if this improve my bacteria killing significantly?
I think i remember that when i was in a hospital i quit drinking coffee, two days later i was taken off antibiotics because of strong reaction, vomiting, increased liver titers.
I don't know if i am right on this one and if I remember this situation well enough but i have a feeling,that subconsciously my body knows that when i quit i feel worse, maybe quitting coffee improved my innate immunity that time and caused that problems.
When i quit usually from time to time, after these magic two days, i have different symptoms like some heart irregular beat one or two, my body warms up and flu like symptoms increase.
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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IngeD
Member Advocate
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 12:44 |
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I am not medically qualified (my only experience is that of a fellow sufferer ) and definately not a scientist but would like to add to the discussion re juice.
One thing that I remember VERY distinctly in my what appears to be a far longer history of illness than I cared to admit at first...is that there was a moment in time (late 2002) when I first started to cough. At the time we had been on an almost raw food diet for several months and been drinking copious amounts of vegetable juice. I developed a fever, a cough and at the same time my blood pressure became high for the first time in my life and I became pre-diabetic. And almost at exactly the same time I developed a very strong aversion for vegetable juice. In fact the carrot juice I had been enjoying made me gag and I have never really been able to take to it in a big way since.
So...not sure if that was related to the diabetes but now I feel my body was telling me something already then...that these "power" foods / supplements were not good. I listened re the juice, unfortunately not re the supplements. And I also now know that this is when my Rickettsiosis first became an issue/ activated.
Not sure if this info is of use to anyone....but the previous posts made me think of it.
I understand Trevor's comments. Lots of things are "woolly". And the variables in this particular area are unfathomable! So bottom line is I guess....stick to what we know and experiment at our own risk 
Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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P.Bear R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 15:51 |
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| Wrotek, Just wean the coffee slowly and you should be OK. If need be you can reduce the antibiotic dosages and/or take tapering doses of caffeine pills to help with withdrawal. best, P.B.
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Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment by your physician.
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wrotek
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 16:11 |
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The thing is P.Bear and i forgot to mention it, i drink mostly decaf LOL But of course decaf or not, i will quit definitely very soon. But i drink a little caffeinated beverages so they my increase discomfort.
I have a interesting idea. Since vitamin D has an effect on muscles,like Dr Marshal vit. d chart shows, i wonder if chlorogenic acid may have these muscle twitching
properties through VDR receptor, which are thought to be caused via magnesium deficiency( also thought to be caused by coffee). On the chart 1,25-D acts directly on muscles, so i assume through VDR.
Many healthy people experience muscle twitches after coffee, my father did Last edited on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 16:20 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 17:45 |
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Wrotek,
Why do you assume your father was 'healthy,' as Th1 disease tends to run in families?
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wrotek
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 19:21 |
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Dr Marshall my father is not complaining about his health at all. Only my grandmother from the site of my mother had apparently Th1 disease, she had osteoporosis, "pains of unknown origin', facial pain etc so i am almost sure she was Th1. My father's family site does not suffer Th1 ailments. Interesting is that my mother is not sick also, thankfully. Maybe my grandmother became sick after giving birth to my mother.
With father we were just talking about muscle twitches i was experiencing that time, when i started being sick and when i did not know were they came from so i tried to explain them connecting to different things like coffee consumption, and he said he occasionally has or had muscle twitches following coffee ingestion, that's all. Last edited on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 19:21 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 19:31 |
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Wrotek,
Based on what we know at this point in time, most of the population suffers from Th1 disease at some point in their life, and many die from it. Now that we understand Th1 pathogens to be behind cardiovascular disease, memory loss, hearing loss, vision loss, and a host of other "diseases of the aging" it is easier to see that the Th1 microbes have been around for a very long time, living in symbiosis with human beings.
During the 20th century a sun-loving lifestyle emerged, as well as Vitamin-D supplementation of foods, and inappropriate use of antibiotics. Together these factors caused a shift towards the survival of the symbiotic bacteria, and away from the well being of the host.
It is perfectly usual for people to not recognize they have a chronic disease. They don't, in fact, have a disease diagnosable by modern medicine. But the pathogens might still eventually kill them...
I hope this helps...
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Freddie Ash
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 11:22 |
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HI WROTEK
This is Fred in WV. With all the heart problems I have I want to add something here. I get a Cleveland Clinic Health Advantage booklet every quarter and I received one yesterday. I had been wondering for the last few months if TH1 caused aneurysms in any way. Will here is what was in the booklet.
The exact cause of aneurysms is unknown, but risk factors include atheroscierosis(heardening of the arteries) and hypertension (high blood pressure). Abdominal aortic aneurysms may be caused by an infection, a congenital weakening of the connective tissue of the artery wall or from trauma.
I have not looked at this site but you may find this info at clevelandclinic.org/health
So the infection I think is the TH1 diseases working on the blood vessels.
Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us.
Your friend in sarcoidosis
Freddie
Your friend in sarcoidosis
Freddie
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Freddie: dx-sarc 2/82 lymph; skin, eyes, joints, esophagus, intestines, spleen, heart,lungs-meds digitek, L-thyroxine, nexium, furosemide, nattokinase36mg,eat cinnamon w/meals,25D-7; 125-D43
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norman
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 14:30 |
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I probably sholdn't even bother opening my mouth here, but I was just curious....if one was taking benicar on a continuous basis, wouldn't the benicar "attach" to the VDR's so that the chlorogenic acid would have no place to attach?
Say one took a benicar at 6am, then had a cup of coffee at 8am, wouldn't those receptors already be "taken" , again so that the chlorogenic acid would not be able to attach, or at least enough to make a difference? Just curious...........
Thanks,
Norman
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Sarc| Ph3 approx 6/1,Acne/ increase skin lesions, anxiety/depression /High IgG and Iga for C. Pneumoniae,last d= 10
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wrotek
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 14:42 |
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| This is good question : I have another, what makes molecule leave receptor and when Maybe when concentration of other more compatible molecule rises pushing out less compatible molecule. Last edited on Wed Mar 21st, 2007 14:47 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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paulalbert
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 01:31 |
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Trevor wrote:
The message for chlorogenic acid is much clearer, however. With Ki in the 8 nanomolar range, this is a good ligand of VDR, definitely active. The only things working to reduce its effect are bioavailability and clearance issues, which have been shown to vary 10:1 between individuals. Thus, the concentration in the cytoplasm is relatively imponderable, but anecdotal clinical experience confirms it is likely very active (IMO)
I have very strong reactions to a lot of foods with chlorogenic acid, so it is conceivable that I have a very low clearance rate. Now whether it is chlorogenic acid alone or some group of phenols with a similar mechanism of action remains to be seen. I do, however, have a couple of questions.
Wouldn't a substance which suppresses the immune system as does CA make you (that is, me) feel better? Is it because, as TM says, CA is also activating some of the other type I nuclear receptors?
Also, how do we know CA is not the tip of the iceberg-- and that there are not dozens of other substances that can interfere with healthy VDR functioning?
thanks,
Paul
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Diag CFS 6.03 / sympt since 9.02 / exercise, food intol, sleep prob / 1,25D: 16, 4.06; 1,25D:27, 25D:26 7.04; 1,25D:43, 25D:6 6.05; 1,25D:17, 25D:8 8.05; / MP: 7.04 / Ph. 3 / Bacteriality
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 03:08 |
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Paul,
The problem is that 1,25-D affects many other receptors, if its concentration rises too high. If the VDR is blocked, then there is no way for CYP24 to be made, and no way for the 1,25-D to be broken down to inactive metabolites. So if you are ill, and the VDR is blocked, the 1,25-D level rises very high and it knocks out the Thyroid and Glucocorticoid receptors, inter alia. There may be fewer cytokines, however, as many of them result from VDR expression.
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madwolf
Health Professional
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 03:16 |
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I drink a lot of coffee.
I have never been able to tolerate much in the way of abx because of the herx.
Is the coffee the reason?
I admit to some confusion, here.
madwolf
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Dx: Psoriatic Arthritis, FMS/CFIDS, Raynaud's Restarted Phase 1 in Noremember 2007 Current 25-D is 35, Non-MP meds: Armour thyroid, 60mg qd. Cymbalta, 60mg qd. CoReg CR 40mg hs. (BP still stable) Januvia 100mg qd, Byetta 10 mcg sub-q bid.
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