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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 21:32 |
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I haven't been following this discussion in a while and I am wondering if the advice that maybe one small coffee a day is out, is the idea that I can use one apple a day as a palliative out as well. (Same chemical I believe.) I only eat 0 to 2 apples a week, but if going through a really terrible time, I might eat more. I usually only eat what I need (e.g., 1/3 of an apple if that is all that is needed).
So far an apple is the only thing I've found (aside from icing for pain) as an all round sx palliative.
Thanks for the clarification.
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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Kas
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 22:14 |
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Hi Claire,
Apples are a source of quercetin, so perhaps that is why you are finding it palliative. Have you tried taking quercetin caps ( around 250 ml) at a time? I find them to be very helpful for certain IP's.
I have cut coffee back to one weak cup of the instant stuff once every week or two weeks, as I find it sometimes helps with my IP's and it gives me the lift I need, but I often go without any for weeks at a time. I use about a small teaspoon of coffee and add some almond ( no D added) organic milk. It's a good treat once in a while!
Feel better.
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Sarc Dx by splenectomy 03- Lungs, lymph nodes, liver. Non MP meds: natural progesterone cream three weeks a month; cal/mag; probiotics; milk thistle daily; cranberry caps prn; quercetin prn.Noirs outdoors and under flourescent work lights, Spectra 3 cream
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 01:21 |
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Quercetin itself (the caps) has caused pretty severe rebound IP and so I've been nervous about trying it again. Apples have worked from the beginning; I stumbled onto that before we started talking about it here. I thought that apple skins (and most pears) also had Chlorogenic Acid, which is why I posted this here. Thanks for the information KAS.
Claire
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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jcwat101
Research Professional
| Joined: | Tue Jul 20th, 2004 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:48 |
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I want say that if you need a little palliation, and you find it works for you, a little apple would be O.K. Tea also has chlorogenic acid and we haven't ruled that out. But I would keep it to a low level and suggest that antibiotic and other adjustments are preferable for managing the IP level than other methods (like chlorogenic acid containing substances). My own experience indicates pear does not have a significant amount of chlorogenic acid.
Joyce Waterhouse
Last edited on Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:50 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 06:32 |
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| Thanks Joyce. I do try to keep apple ingestion to a minimum and change abx instead (and at the same time, not throw every apple out of the house...I try to keep three on hand in case I get a strong IP that needs palliation...before a decrease in abx can help). So sometimes I enjoy an apple when I don't need it for palliation. I rarely drink tea (never coffee), and I tend to drink it for pleasure very weak when I do, as apples are the real deal when it comes to palliation for me. Thanks again, Claire
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34mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob. IBS/GERD osteopor.; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings & covered up; home w/o NoIRs
Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08 * Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan2009
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garyv
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 16:29 |
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Like CelticLadee noted early in this thread, I eat an apple every day in the a.m. (that plus a few frozen sour cherries from my orchard is my sole breakfast/lunch), and I do not notice any palliative effects at all.
However, I DO PEEL my apples (and have for well over a decade) for 2 reasons other than their potential chlorogenic acid content:- They are not organic (although I do pick them myself at an orchard in the mts.)
- Apple skin is a "harsh" fiber (like that in raw celery, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots and other root veggies) which can irritate the ileocecal valve in many with a sensitive gut (most all of us here?) and put stress on the gall bladder, thereby causing weakened fat absorption which decreases cell membrane strength and innate immunity in general.
This last tidbit I learned from a book by Jonn Matsen, N.D. (republished as "Eating Alive") and found the truth of it through my own experience. It's also worth noting here that one of the significant improvements at my 10-month mark on the MP was improved fat digestion (smaller, more frequent and sinking, rather than floating, stools).
Matsen also says when the ileocecal valve is irritated by sharp cutting fiber such as that in apple peel and wheat bran, this compromises it's function of preventing microbes in the colon from getting into the small intestine where their waste products (and CWD forms?) can potentially be absorbed.
It would be interesting to find out, Clair, whether the palliation you note is derived from the apple itself or from the skin. As we all know, palliation from certain substances (like Vitamin D and sunshine) may not be desirable in the long term.
I have also found that avoiding all nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplant, tobacco) may be critical in reducing the inflammatory symptoms that many of us experience as immunopathology (I'll be posting about that in another thread).
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DxOsteoporosis/osteoarthritis/Raynauds/paresthesia/tinnitus 1,25D69 Ph1Mar08 Ph3Jan09 25D44(Apr09) no meds or light avoidance, covered in direct sunlight only
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it.” –Arabic proverb
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 17:09 |
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Matsen also says when the ileocecal valve is irritated by sharp cutting fiber such as that in apple peel and wheat bran, this compromises it's function of preventing microbes in the colon from getting into the small intestine where their waste products (and CWD forms?) can potentially be absorbed.
What rubbish. Why do scientists try to simplify complex systemic behavior to this level? All cells are porous to L-forms. Infected immune cells travel throughout the body. Macro concepts such as advanced by Matsen have no role to play in modern Medicine.
As for apples,
if I remember correctly, the Chlorogenic Acid is in a layer beneath the skin, to prevent entry to the fruit by pathogens.
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garyv
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 17:39 |
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Dr. Marshall, forgive me if I misled. Matsen said nothing about L-forms; that was my own ignorant editorial (parenthetical) speculation.
I doubt very much if Matsen knows anything at all about L-forms. In any case, the book I was referencing was published 22 years ago.
His observation on ileocecal valve functioning, however, I found to be true in my own experience, and my digestive function took a giant leap forward when I eliminated scratchy fiber from my diet. After all, we're not exactly designed by Nature to eat a lot of cellulose like cows and sheep, are we? 
Having had years of rather severe gut problems behind me now (ongoing from about age 25 to 45), I found out just how debilitating and discouraging they can be. As I've said before, my gut immunopathology has been minimal since going on the MP nearly 14 months ago (and for a decade prior), while kidney/anemia/muscle herxing continue unabated into at least the 10th month now.
So IMHO elucidation of certain food and gut function issues may be helpful to those who are still experiencing significant gut immunopathology.
Just trying to "pay it forward."
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DxOsteoporosis/osteoarthritis/Raynauds/paresthesia/tinnitus 1,25D69 Ph1Mar08 Ph3Jan09 25D44(Apr09) no meds or light avoidance, covered in direct sunlight only
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it.” –Arabic proverb
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 17:46 |
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Gary,
I know it might sound reasonable for you to think in terms of "scratchy" fibre, but I will guarantee that the scratchyness of the fibre in your diet has little or nothing to do with reflux of bacterial species from the colon to the intestine.
Our whole understanding of GI tract science has changed within the last several years, especially with the understanding that innate immunity is active, more so than adaptive immunity (as was previously believed).
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