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Ames
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat May 21st, 2005 14:17 |
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Can fainting be a herx symptom?
When I first started becoming ill with CFS, I would often faint when I moved from sitting to standing. One time I fainted every day for a week. A while later I was diagnosed with NMH (as part of my CFS symptoms). In the last few years, my NMH has improved, and been essentially replaced by other symptoms.
However, yesterday when I was herxing, I noticed the same tendency to almost faint when I moved from sitting to standing.
I don't think it's due to the blood pressure lowering effects of Benicar, because I didn't feel this way when I was taking Benicar alone.
Still, was under the impression that herx symptoms are caused by toxins released by dying bacteria. I find it odd that toxins would cause me to nearly faint, but is this possible? Or do you think my blood pressure could be getting too low?
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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DaveW
inactive member
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Posted: Sat May 21st, 2005 15:55 |
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Hi Ames,
I am not a medical professional, but the fainting issue happened to be addressed on the Chicago Conference DVD's, which I have just watched.
As was discussed at the conference, there is no doubt that some folks experience dizziness and fainting as part of their herx reactions. The fact that you experienced this from your disease alone (Pre-MP), tells you that the disease is capable of causing this symptom and suggests it is likely herx, as herx is often the re-living of the same symptoms you experienced over the course of your disease.
I have gotten very dizzy a few times since I started the MP. It seems to come and go in stages or cycles. I am very convinced that these experiences were herx for me. Although I did not faint, I suspect I may have if I had not sat down quickly.
Do you have a blood pressure monitor? If not, do you know anyone who has one that you could borrow for a day or two? By taking your blood pressure after sitting for a time period, you would find out your resting BP. Then stand up quickly (if you think you can do it safely), and take your BP once again. Such measures would act to relieve your fears about the role of your BP in your dizzines or
fainting.
When I measured my own BP when I was having the dizzy spells, I found it was very stable and no different than when I wasn't having the dizzy spells. However, my experience does not guarantee your experience, so you may wish to check it on your own.
Again, I am neither a professional nor an expert, so if someone more "in the know" responds and provides different advice - listen to them!
All the best Ames.
- DaveW
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MP Aug14/04,Pre-MP D=19.6,1,25D=37 ratio 1.89 P2>12/27/04.Back to P1 fall/05.Back to P2 05/06. 21 yrs neuro-lyme not dx til 11/05. OlmesTR 40 mg/7hrs. Major: Weakness,IBS-C,pain,bad sleep,anxiety,depression,cognitive focus,memory,CMV,epilepsy & osteo
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Aussie Barb
Research Team
| Joined: | Thu Jul 22nd, 2004 |
| Location: | Australia |
| Posts: | 19444 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sat May 21st, 2005 15:56 |
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Amy
The ARB (Benicar) and the antibiotics do not cause the symptoms; they make the symptoms evident. The cause is your inflammatory disease. Even if your symptoms become subclinical without the ARBs and antibiotics, they will remain (and get worse) until the Th1 inflammation is resolved.
Dr Marshall says: "All of those symptoms are caused by the disease, not directly by Benicar or the other antibacterial drugs. ....
see the information re dizziness in this FAQ Does Benicar cause dizziness?
"Dizziness is part of the inflammatory disease process.
As the inflammation resolves with the Marshall Protocol, dizziness resolves also. The dizziness resolves even when the blood pressure remains low and the dosage of Benicar remains the same. This is clear evidence that dizziness is not caused by Benicar and/or a change in blood pressure.
Do take care when changing positions... getting up more slowly, holding firmly, etc, so that you do not fall and hurt yourself."
Rest is also a very important part of managing and healing.. make sure you are having adequate rest. By pushing our bodies to the limit of tolerable herxing we are working our body to capacity.
and re herx in the links within this FAQ HERX .... What is it? and HERXHEIMER REACTION
Barb ...
thank you Dave, I see we posted at the same time..
see also later addition re fainting.
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Ames
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sat May 21st, 2005 17:46 |
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Thanks you both for the input. I am going to try to get a blood pressure monitor to have on hand.
However, I agree with you Dave in thinking that the sudden reappearance of my nearly fainting must be part of a herx that is bringing back symptoms from a long time ago. I was interested to hear that you had the same experience as well, thanks for sharing.
I will be careful changing postitions etc. to hopefully prevent me from any bad falls!
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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kathleen
inactive member
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Posted: Sat May 21st, 2005 23:50 |
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Dear Amy,
I also have had NMH as part of my CFS. For the first 5 months that I was on the MP I was 'almost fainting" about 30 times each day. Every time that I would stand up I would need to immediately squat down and sit on my heels for a minute or I would have passed out. It would sometimes happen when I was already up also. It didn't matter where I was, down on my heels I'd sit.
Now it's happening less often.
I dont' know why the fainting is worse on the MP. It doesn't relate to my lower BP at all. Hopefully it's part of killing bacteria and getting better.
I went to the NIH to be part of a study on syncope seveal years ago. My nor epinephron levels were extremely low resting and didn't go up as they should for standing. I suspect that if all CFS patients all tested the results would be similar to mine. They didn't use the tilt table, thank goodness. My official diagnosis is dysautonomia. Off the record the doctors said that they understood why I sometimes fall down, but not how I ever stand up.
I think thatthe trick is to avoid actually passing out if possible, and being very careful getting up at night. It's falling and hitting your head that's a potential problem. Otherwise it just sort of wears me out. Even more.
Kathleen
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CFS '86, LTD '86 (50 yrs old)pacemaker - total heart block '99 fatigue, cognitive, sleep, digestion, dysautonomia, weakness, headache, tinnitus, IC, new anemia 9/9/04 D,25 44 - D,125 76 4/05 D,25 24 4/05 Ben 40mg/6hrs, Mod Ph 2
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team (on leave)
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Posted: Sun May 22nd, 2005 01:58 |
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Ames,
It's fine to monitor your blood pressure but it isn't necessary. You may prove that your dizziness is related to your blood pressure. But blood pressure modulation difficulties are a part of your disease process just as your dizziness is. It isn't a simple matter of toxins being released. All the hormones are inter-related and inflammation caused by dysregulated hormone D throws everything out of kilter.
If you follow Dave, Kathleen and Barb's advice, you will be safe while your dizziness resolves. You can stop worrying about Benicar being the cause of your dizziness. Benicar is defining your inflammatory symptoms and helping your immune system eliminate the cause of that inflammation. Benicar is your friend even though it may not seem like it at times.
Best,
Meg
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Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment by your physician.
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Ames
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun May 22nd, 2005 10:57 |
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Thanks Meg,
I agree that Benicar is my friend. I felt much better when I started it, and I understand how it is helping to define and over time decrease my inflammation.
Since low blood pressure has played a large role in my disease symptoms, it makes sense that it would return as my body's hormones react to the medications.
Thanks Kathleen for relating to my experience. I did do the tilt table test, and it was not fun! I got the same off the record feedback from doctors who would find my blood pressure so excessively low that they couldn't believe I was standing. Finally they even sent me to John Hopkins to a blood pressure specialist who just ended up being baffaled by my situation. So I agree, I think most CFS patients suffer with this issue.
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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ShrnHml
Guest
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Posted: Sun May 22nd, 2005 14:44 |
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Amy......there is a good article in Consumer Reports (June 2003, page 22) on blood pressure monitors.
Sharon
Note from Meg: A synopsis of that article is in this forum:
HELPFUL HINTS FOR THOSE ON THE MARSHALL PROTOCOLLast edited on Mon May 23rd, 2005 01:15 by
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Neuroborreliosis, MP 3/05, 1,25D 62; 3/06 25D<4, ModPh2 12/05, Premarin, Effexor, stopped Benicar 1/07....no longer in study
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P.Bear R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Sun May 22nd, 2005 19:43 |
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| I firmly believe that fainting is a herx. I also have seen hypotension being described in medical literature as one of the main signs of herx in spirochete antibiotic treatment. My fainting potential pulses with the antibiotics and fortunately is not as profound now as it was when starting the benicar. P.B.
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Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment by your physician.
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