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Mike27
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 18:15 |
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Hello--
I know that the disregulation of the vitamin D metabolism is capable of causing stones/calcium deposits in our organs. Once we've killed off all the bacteria, do the stones go away by themselves or will there be a certain degree of permanent damage to some of our affected organs?
When I first got sick, one of my symptoms was testicle pain. I had an ultrasound of my pelvic region done, and I was diagnosed with a condition called microlithiasis, which literally means "little stones." (Hold the laughter, please...). Basically, the urologist I was referred to told me that they were little calcium deposits and that doctors don't know how poeple get them or what effects, if any, they have.
Well... a year later, having learned about the MP, I could tell that doctor how they got there. I could also presume that I have these calcium deposits in all the other organs that have been affected by my disease (heart, brain, liver, etc.). What I'm wondering is, once the bacteria is all killed, do these calcium deposits disappear since we metabolize our vitamin D and calcium better? If not, do they cause our organs to continue to perform abnormally even though all the bacteria, itself, has been eradicated?
Thanks all.
Mike
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Lyme and mycoplasma infections since 9/03; Began MP on August 8/19/04. 8/24/04- 25-D = 14.3ng/mL, 1,25-D = 76pg/mL; 11/29/04- 25-D = 13.8, 1,25 D = 63| Lexapro, Neurontin, Temazepam| Phase 3, 40mg Benicar 4x/day
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 18:29 |
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Mike,
Dr Marshall's posts at Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:
"granuloma in the lung" can be pretty imprecise.
If biopsy-proven, yes you would expect to have lung herx, and if it wasn't there then you would know you still have some bacteria to kill 
If it was just called a granuloma because of appearance on an xray or a CT scan the diagnosis would be a little less precise, and I wouldn't be so worried.
..Trevor.. Will my lung function get better?
otherwise we may be back to time will tell? best, Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Reenie
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 18:30 |
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Mike,
I have calcified granuloma in my lungs. This is from the bone reabsorption of calcium and Hypervitaminosis D. I undoubtedly, have calcium deposits in other soft tissues in my body, as you've noted, as well.
I'm sure, eventually, as we get the D regulated once again, these deposits will go away; I have no doubt that many of these deposits will dissolve over time. 
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Mike27
inactive member
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 19:00 |
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| Maybe I've just had my terms mixed up. Is a granuloma nothing more than a calcium deposit?
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Lyme and mycoplasma infections since 9/03; Began MP on August 8/19/04. 8/24/04- 25-D = 14.3ng/mL, 1,25-D = 76pg/mL; 11/29/04- 25-D = 13.8, 1,25 D = 63| Lexapro, Neurontin, Temazepam| Phase 3, 40mg Benicar 4x/day
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 19:08 |
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Mike,
Dr Marshall says > "Granulomas are simply inflammation which has gotten so energetic that the white cells (phagocytes) survive in lumps or masses (granuloma) instead of requiring tissue to support them. All of this is Th1 inflammation... " & ""granuloma ..... " can be pretty imprecise.
If biopsy-proven, yes, ........ and if it wasn't there then you would know you still have some bacteria to kill
If it was just called a granuloma because of appearance on an xray or a CT scan the diagnosis would be a little less precise."
..Trevor..
see In the document
http://www.sarcinfo.com/calcium.htm
it states:
At levels above about 42 pg/ml, the 1,25-D (generated by the sarcoid inflammation) begins to stimulate bone osteoclasts[12], causing bone to be resorbed (dissolved) back into the bloodstream. Not only does this lead to osteporosis, but also to calcium being deposited into soft tissue of the body, including the lungs, breasts, and the kidneys (where it forms kidney stones)
Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Reenie
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 19:10 |
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No Mike. I believe there are more than one type of granuloma.
I suspect that the radiologist looking at my lung x-ray could tell that I had calcification in mine, by the density of it. I'm not "curious" enough to get a lung biopsy to find out if I have bacterium in that granuloma.
I don't believe all granulomas are calcified.
Here's a definition from Taber's Med Encyclopedia:
granuloma
An inflammatory response that results when macrophages are unable to destroy foreign substances that have entered or invaded body tissues.Large numbers of macrophages are drawn to the affected area over 7 to 10 days, surround the target, and enclose it. They in turn are surrounded by polymorphonuclear leukocytes, other immune cells, and fibroblasts. Granulomas are common in many conditions, including leprosy, tuberculosis, cat scratch disease, some fungal infections, and foreign body reactions (e.g., reactions to sutures). SEE: giant cell; tuberculosis; Wegener's granulomatosis.
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 19:13 |
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Mike
I did a google search > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=granuloma+calcium+deposit&btnG=Search <<< if you'd like to have a look at it .. Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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TX Lyme Mom
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Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2004 21:25 |
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Mike, here's a link to a good website about granulomas:
http://www.granuloma.homestead.com/
Barb, nice job on your Google search. All I did was simply copy and paste something from one of Trevor's links which I already knew how to find easily. Hey, together, we're a pretty good team though, aren't we?
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Care-Giver & Lyme/CFIDS/MCS Support Group Leader; healthy (not a patient) so no D-level data for me
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Mike27
inactive member
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Posted: Thu Nov 18th, 2004 16:59 |
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Thank you all so much for your replies. I've read the links you supplied. It is now clear to me that my "calcium deposits" can be granulomas caused by my infection, rather than some form of pre-cancerous calcified tissue as was suggested to me by my urologist. I've seen my ultrasound pictures. The pictures are simply not clear enough for me (or a radiologist, for that matter) to decipher whether I have many small pre-cancerous nodules (which would not resolve by themselves) or granulomas which should resolve by treating my underlying infections. For me, that's great news.
Thanks,
Mike
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Lyme and mycoplasma infections since 9/03; Began MP on August 8/19/04. 8/24/04- 25-D = 14.3ng/mL, 1,25-D = 76pg/mL; 11/29/04- 25-D = 13.8, 1,25 D = 63| Lexapro, Neurontin, Temazepam| Phase 3, 40mg Benicar 4x/day
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Aussie Barb
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Posted: Thu Nov 18th, 2004 17:11 |
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| wonderful.. thank you for getting back to us Mike. thanks for posting. Barb ...
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Barb: Dx Inflammatory Disease Endocrine Imbalance 2003| 24+ years not Dx| ABCofMP
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Reenie
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Posted: Thu Nov 18th, 2004 17:28 |
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Mike,
I agree w/your assessment. I called and spoke to the radiologist abt my x-ray, and came to a similar conclusion. Because my calcified granulomas are in my lungs, as opposed to where yours are, IMO, it's "assumed" they are of no significance, benign, (no change in size over several yrs) and from a PAST infection.
IMO, the term PAST infection, is clearly overrated. 
With new research, we now know that these "deposits, lesions and granulomas" are more likely related to our illness and they prob ARE our infectious and inflamed tissues of Th1 illness.
IMO, time will tell, what they are, by what happens to these deposits as we heal the Th1 inflammation.
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Big John
Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 21st, 2004 22:28 |
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Hi Mike!
I am pretty well versed in the stone dept. I have had stones on several occasions and have retained small stones in both my bladder and right kidney. Had them in my left kidney, however they were shattered with ultrasound, however that is a whole other subject, First, stones can be created in the body from chemicals. Antibiotics can cause stones or more precisely crystals, in my case I was told by my urologist that certain infections can cause crystals to form.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001275.htm
This link refers to bladder stones and specifically states that infections cause stones. I think as time progresses we will find that many stones throughout the body are a result of infection. I specifically have had testicle swelling along with prostate infection which led to my reactive arthritis etc. The interesting part is I was assured after many tests that the infection was cleared up after courses of bactrim, zithromax, and cipro. Even though I had pain during urination, ejaculation and decreased libido, fatigue, and inability to ejaculate as I used to. Drs did ultrasounds, IVP, MRI, CT scans, etc. at that time I was assured that I was free of stones, and free of infection. Within 2 months I passed a stone the size of a pea. 2 more years I suffered with urinary discomfort and sexual disjunction. After more courses of antibiotics.. None worked.
Within 2 months of starting the MP prostate pain is gone, and my sexual function is back. My point to all of this is simply that in my opinion in the near future we will find that many problems that medicine has chalked up to aging, cancer, inflamation, heart disease, mental illnesses, etc will be linked to cell wall deficient or mutated bacteria. But I am no expert..
With respect to absorption of the stones I understand that we pass many stones during our liftime and are not even aware, I am sure the possibility exists to reabsorb them or pass them. Whatever the answer my enthusiasm comes from the fact that they are no longer being manufactured due to addressing the cause, the infection.
Good Luck In Your Decisions!
John
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Reiters Syndrome, Benicar 9/23/04. Mdx: Sotolol, atenolol, spironolactone, amlodipine,alprazolam, lexapro, Benicar q8. Ph2 12/05. Ph3 5/06
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Mike27
inactive member
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Posted: Sun Nov 21st, 2004 23:39 |
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Hi Big John--
Thanks for your response... it was very helpful. I guess one of the reasons I started this particular thread in the first place is that, of my many symptoms, my testicle pain/discomfort is one of the few not to noticably herx or begin resolving itself during my first three months on the MP. I was begining to wonder if maybe the MP WAS clearing the infection from that region and that the reason I wasn't feeling better down there was because of permanent damage that had been done as a result of infection. I'm excited to be hearing from everyone that the pain and the stones seem to be a sign of continuing infection-- which the MP should take care of-- rather than scarred tissue that I'd be stuck with even when I've finished the MP!
Take care.
Mike
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Lyme and mycoplasma infections since 9/03; Began MP on August 8/19/04. 8/24/04- 25-D = 14.3ng/mL, 1,25-D = 76pg/mL; 11/29/04- 25-D = 13.8, 1,25 D = 63| Lexapro, Neurontin, Temazepam| Phase 3, 40mg Benicar 4x/day
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Big John
Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 02:38 |
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Glad it helped with your questions! I have found from my experience so far that certain of my symptoms have not budged with the protocol. Specifically frustrating for me has been the eye inflamation. Like you I wonder if the inflamation, blurriness, and fog is a result of permanent damage to the retina. The retinologist says hard to tell at this point. MP Doc tells me that there are many different bacteria and that Mino will not kill many so told me to relax. He also said that my best herxs may be on the horizon as I change to other antiobiotics. The point in my rambling is that maybe those issues you still have will resolve at a higher dosage or different antiobiotic. In the past I got my most resolution from Biaxin, although it did not cure my prostate infection it did resolve it. Bottom line differnet bugs different antibiotics. Let us know how things go!
John
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Reiters Syndrome, Benicar 9/23/04. Mdx: Sotolol, atenolol, spironolactone, amlodipine,alprazolam, lexapro, Benicar q8. Ph2 12/05. Ph3 5/06
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mort
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Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 03:01 |
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Hi Big John,
I was interested to read about your experience with Biaxin. I, too, had a good experience with it treating a sore throat. (At the time, docs thought it was an infection and we thought it was clearing the infection, as it did subside. I stopped the Biaxin after two weeks of treatment and the soreness returned, almost immediately. Later, an ENT doc diagnosed it as sarc-related inflammation.) I thought the sore throat temporarily subsided due to the abx qualities of Biaxin, but my ENT doc said no, it was because Biaxin, of all the antibiotics on the market, also has anti-inflammatory properties. These properties brought relief. Could this be your case?
Last edited on Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 03:07 by mort
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Mort
09/22/04: D,1,25=50; D,25=18.1
10/01/04:MP STARTED. Sarc:Lungs,Skin,Sinus,Mouth,&Throat. Aortic Regurgitation. MEDS:Benicar40mg/6hr; Minocyclin 100mg; Advair(currently, only on occasion).
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Big John
Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 04:12 |
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Hi Mort!
My story is long and involved. I'll try to be brief. About 5 years ago now I guess (time is just a swoosh) I was diagnosed with kidney stones. I was very healthy, worked as a therapist, had a good job with the governemnt. I went in on Friday and was assured I would be back to work on Monday. Within 60 days I was confined to bed with Muscle swelling throughout my body, knees, hips, neck, shoulders, arms fingers, Etc, etc. I had infections in prostate, bladder and kidney etc., during this time I saw no less that 12 Drs. many antibiotics were tried. The one I reacted the most to was bactrim, fact is that several Drs thought I had an allergy to it, I now think that maybe it was a bad herx. Anyway the next one was Biaxin and it seemed to stabalize me, IE: lot less pain and discomfort. I still had some pain during ejaculation and my sex drive was way gone! Urologist told me it was probably damage due to the infections and said that there was no further infection indications after taking boo koo tests. I think the relief that I experienced from Biaxin was either from the Biaxin itself killing bacteria or possibly from the Bactrim which I had taken previously and had reaction to, hard to tell, either way I still had some pain and discomfort during urination and ejaculation for several years more, until I began MP.
John
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Reiters Syndrome, Benicar 9/23/04. Mdx: Sotolol, atenolol, spironolactone, amlodipine,alprazolam, lexapro, Benicar q8. Ph2 12/05. Ph3 5/06
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hrts4me
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Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 05:26 |
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Mike says>>>>It is now clear to me that my "calcium deposits" can be granulomas caused by my infection, rather than some form of pre-cancerous calcified tissue as was suggested to me by my urologist.
Mike, my left kidney measures 10.5 cm x 4.9 cm. I have a cyst on that kidney measuring 1.5 x 2.1 x 4.1 cm. It does have septums which have calcified and the outer perimeter is calcified also. It has been suggested (by my urologist and nephrologist) that this kidney will probably have to be removed due to the incidence of cancer when they become this size and calcify. They do not do biopsies (fear of spreading), nor do they treat this with chemo or radiation, but deem it renal cell carcinoma, and remove the kidney--then send it to the lab. (Renal cell does not respond to chemo or radiation)--therefore nephrectomy.
My signature line also displays hypercalciuria, which means I lose large amounts of calcium in the urine. I am one that passes calcium phosphate. Additionally I have hyperlithiasis, meaning I rapid build and pass kidney stones. I am sure the two are related and due to the chronic UTI's which I experience. Bladder infections, are pretty much benign, and are fairly common in woman, but I also have many repeated kidney infections each year. Kidney infections do create scarring. They have tried prophalactic doses of abx with no success.
My point is that I am convinced I am dealing with CWD bacteria when discussing both the renal cyst and the stone formation, and that instead of the scare of impending removal of my kidney due to cancer, that if I can treat these bacteria, that I will solve both problems. Now I must simply try to get my nephrologist on board.
Best wishes,
hrts
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LYME COPD Arterioscl Seiz FM CFS Hypertens NASH HiChol/ 4.2cmKidneyMass&Stones HyperCaPhUria Angina Arryth SOB RadNeurop BiPolarI| 1/05 25D-14 1,25D-13 2/07 25-D14| Nitro Verapamil Hydrocodone Baclofen Dicyclomine promethazine clonazepam
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Mike27
inactive member
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Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 12:44 |
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Hi Hrts--
I like your call sign-- I feel like changing mine to "Hrts Badly." Hehe... Anyway, I'm due for another ultrasound soon. I've been on the MP for three months, probably not long enough to show a difference as far as the pictures go. But I'm interested to see the results. I'll definitely post the results, and please do the same the next time you have an ultrasound/MRI of your kidney. I'm really hoping that our bodies end up reabsorbing the calcium deposits/stones once we kill these infections...
Mike
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Lyme and mycoplasma infections since 9/03; Began MP on August 8/19/04. 8/24/04- 25-D = 14.3ng/mL, 1,25-D = 76pg/mL; 11/29/04- 25-D = 13.8, 1,25 D = 63| Lexapro, Neurontin, Temazepam| Phase 3, 40mg Benicar 4x/day
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Reenie
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Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 18:49 |
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Mike27 says, "I like your call sign-- I feel like changing mine to "Hrts Badly.""
It's funny how we view things differently, from our part of the world. I always saw hrts4me, as short for Hormone Replacement Therapies for Me, since I deal with many hormonal issues.
Mike, maybe it would be an interesting topic thread to start, for ppl that have MRIs, Ultrasounds, x-rays, and other follow ups after starting the MP.
I hope to have a chest x-ray done, in a couple of years, showing resolution of my granulomas due to the MP. I get periodic chiropractic x-rays, which would show if there's any minor resolution of the spondyliosis and other calfifications too, although I think sooner than that would be too soon to show any significant improvement.
It'll also be interesting to see how my Dexa Scans will look/change while I'm on the MP, since I get those annually and am now off supplemental Calcium w/D.
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hrts4me
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Posted: Wed Nov 24th, 2004 15:19 |
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Mike,
I just had a renal US and will hear the results on 12/2....holding my breath. I am anxious to hear the results of your next imaging, and if your microlithiasis resolves. It would give me hope cause I am passing large stones, that look like grass burrs. Ouch! I will be happy to report on my hyperlithiasis and imaging, after I have been able to implement the MP, if I can get doc on board. I am suppose to have imaging (they range from US, Cat Scan, to MRI) every 6 mos, so I could monitor changes.
I would be interested to know if the docs have decided if your microstones are calcium oxalate. My stones are calcium phosphate. Have you passed any and had them analysed?
You said in your first post you wondered if they remained after the MP if they would cause the organ to perform abnormally. I have been told that the stones don't really affect function. Have you heard differently?
PS. hurts 4 me and hearts 4 me.....I have lots of hurts, but the hearts that love me make up for it :-) thats behind the nickname. Reenie the hormone issues I deal with are of the type that make hubby pull his hair, monthly. Guess PMS4me?
hrts.
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LYME COPD Arterioscl Seiz FM CFS Hypertens NASH HiChol/ 4.2cmKidneyMass&Stones HyperCaPhUria Angina Arryth SOB RadNeurop BiPolarI| 1/05 25D-14 1,25D-13 2/07 25-D14| Nitro Verapamil Hydrocodone Baclofen Dicyclomine promethazine clonazepam
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